What is the difference between body autonomy and body liberation?

Body autonomy refers to an individual’s right to make decisions about their own body, including decisions about weight loss medications such as GLP-1s. It operates at the level of personal choice. Body liberation operates at a different level entirely. It requires examining and dismantling the systemic conditions, including anti-fat bias, diet culture, and capitalism, that shape why a person wants what they want in the first place.

A person can have full autonomy over a choice, such as using a GLP-1 medication for weight loss, while that choice is still shaped by decades of cultural conditioning around thinness and worth. Recognizing this does not invalidate the person’s right to choose. It allows for a more complete conversation about why the choice felt necessary, and what role public figures play when they model that choice publicly.

This distinction matters in clinical and coaching settings because it allows practitioners to validate a client’s autonomy while still naming the systemic forces at play, without those two things canceling each other out.

Body autonomy refers to an individual’s right to make decisions about their own body, including decisions about weight loss medications such as GLP-1s. It operates at the level of personal choice. Body liberation operates at a different level entirely. It requires examining and dismantling the systemic conditions, including anti-fat bias, diet culture, and capitalism, that shape why a person wants what they want in the first place.

A person can have full autonomy over a choice, such as using a GLP-1 medication for weight loss, while that choice is still shaped by decades of cultural conditioning around thinness and worth. Recognizing this does not invalidate the person’s right to choose. It allows for a more complete conversation about why the choice felt necessary, and what role public figures play when they model that choice publicly.

This distinction matters in clinical and coaching settings because it allows practitioners to validate a client’s autonomy while still naming the systemic forces at play, without those two things canceling each other out.

Transcript – Body Commenting Celebrity Weight Loss GLP-1

[00:00:00] Stephanie: Welcome to the podcast, Abbey.

[00:00:02] Abbie: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:04] Stephanie: Oh, it’s so exciting for you to be here, and I’ll tell this story why it’s exciting, but I’ll just wanna introduce you properly.

[00:00:10] Stephanie: Abbey Atwood is an anti-diet, weight inclusive nutritionist with a master in clinical nutrition. She’s also the host of the Full Plate Podcast and the same name Substack, which is how I reconnected with Abbey because I, and this is the backstory here, I know of Abbey from, like, I think it’s 2022 when you started a podcast with Diane Sanfilippo, I think- Mm-hmm

[00:00:39] Stephanie: is her name. Was it 2022?

[00:00:41] Abbie: Yeah, it was probably 2021 or 2022, yeah.

[00:00:44] Stephanie: Yeah. Uh, because it was like, I am a, back in the days, like 12 years ago, I was a paleo person. Ah. So Diane was, like, in my circle.

[00:00:55] Abbie: Yes. Yes.

[00:00:56] Stephanie: And then I disappeared and then had some life [00:01:00] awakening moment, and anti-diet and intuitive eating came.

[00:01:03] Stephanie: And then this podcast came with Diane and you, and that’s how I met you.

[00:01:09] Abbie: Oh, that’s amazing. I didn’t know that, Stephanie.

[00:01:12] Stephanie: Yeah. So, so cool to have you here today.

[00:01:15] Abbie: Oh, well, I’m really glad to know that background, and now I just have so many questions for you- I know … which I’ll save for when I interview you on my podcast.

[00:01:24] Stephanie: And for everybody, we did a swap, so she’s, Abbey’s on my podcast today, and I’m gonna be on her podcast. We’re hanging out

[00:01:29] Abbie: for a while.

[00:01:29] Stephanie: Yeah, for the next at least 90 minutes. And, uh, this is why I wanted to have the conversation with you because you wrote a great article on your Substack, which everybody should go to your Substack.

[00:01:43] Stephanie: We’ll put the link in the show note, but you co- you wrote an article titled Ariana Grande, GLP-1, and the Media. And I wanna have a conversation with you because you seem like a person who hangs out in the gray zone like me, like [00:02:00] you’re tolerant of other people’s idea, and it’s, not everybody has that skill set.

[00:02:04] Stephanie: And I wanted to have that conversation about the whole commenting on people’s body, and the celebrity culture, and GLP-1. So perhaps for the listener, uh, what was this article about? And I think it’s a really popular article for you on your Substack. Am I correct?

[00:02:22] Abbie: Yeah, it was. I, I originally wrote it, I wanna say, like maybe a, a year ago.

[00:02:26] Abbie: And it was kind of as a response to at that time when Serena Williams had come out, um, about GLP-1s, and there was a lot of kind of controversy, and a lot of opinions about that, and a lot of hot takes, you know? And I actually ended up having, I think, I think you have a, you have some private group coaching you do, right, Stephanie?

[00:02:50] Abbie: Yeah. Yeah. So I have a membership group, and we ended up talking about it and just kind of holding space for all the different feelings that were coming up for people. [00:03:00] And after that conversation, I was just reflecting and wanted to share some thoughts, and just about what it means to be living in this moment right now, and how different it feels than maybe it has for people in the past.

[00:03:14] Abbie: Because it’s nothing new, right? It’s nothing new that we’re seeing a new style of, um, you know, a new popular weight loss technique, right? That’s, it’s nothing new. We’ve seen this so many times in different ways over the decades. But I think it feels really different to people. It feels louder. It feels more present, both because of just the accessibility of, um, you know, that social media offers, and the media at large, and celebrity culture, and kinda the parasocial relationships that we form.

[00:03:49] Abbie: And then just how loud the marketing is right now around GLP-1s, which I personally do think is a really huge issue. The marketing of these medications has become [00:04:00] just, really dangerous territory for a lot of people, you know? And so I think it’s just louder and more pervasive than it has been for, before.

[00:04:07] Abbie: And so I wanted to have a conversation about that or just kinda type my thoughts up about, like how do we handle this? Like, how do we think about body autonomy and a culture that has conditioned us to formulate our sense of self-worth, our status, our power, our self-esteem, our whole quality of life around kind of how we’re perceived, and our body size, and the beauty ideal.

[00:04:40] Abbie: So it, it was kind of born out of that, and it’s just messy. It’s messy.

[00:04:46] Stephanie: It is messy, and I think it’s more harmful, more… It’s certainly louder. Like, I’m 50, so I’ve been through many waves of weight loss. This is the loudest- [00:05:00] Mm-hmm … weight loss tactic I have seen. And I think it’s not just the tactic itself, it’s the money behind it, and it’s social media.

[00:05:08] Stephanie: Like, I didn’t have social media 15 years ago, 20 years ago, when I was, like, doing the latest diet. So I think there’s many contributing factor that makes it inevitable. Like, you cannot escape it. You cannot avoid it. It’s on billboard, it’s on social media, and it’s constant reminder that you should be thinner, and there’s a miracle potion for that.

[00:05:33] Stephanie: And, and it’s constantly sending you back this ultra thinness, and I think that’s the Ariana Grande, which is the body image or the view on her body that she’s sending us, that ultra thinness is, it’s making you think a lot deeper than any other weight loss, I guess- Mm-hmm … tactic. But my, my take on that, and [00:06:00] this is where I wanna have a conversation with you, we do have body autonomy, right?

[00:06:04] Stephanie: We, each one of us, and I firmly believe in autonomy. Each one of us can do what we want with our body. And I think for me, there’s also a responsibility when you are platform. When you are someone that has a following. I have a small following, but I, to me, I engage with my following with some kind of responsibility of what I say, how I say it.

[00:06:29] Stephanie: And for me, this is where, it’s rubbing against body autonomy. Yes, these people have autonomy, but at the same time, do they not also have a responsibility?

[00:06:40] Abbie: Hmm.

[00:06:41] Stephanie: I

[00:06:41] Abbie: don’t

[00:06:41] Stephanie: know.

[00:06:44] Abbie: It’s a difficult question. I mean, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Body autonomy is, the cornerstone of my work and, and yours too.

[00:06:53] Abbie: And I think that’s exactly why all of this concerns me so much, because when we’re living inside [00:07:00] a culture that’s, just systematically undermining the conditions for body autonomy, it’s… I mean, you c- how, how can we have genuine autonomy inside a coercive system. And so what are the factors contributing to that coercion?

[00:07:20] Abbie: And what are the things that are happening that are making people make the choices that they are making? And yes, those are free choices, but how free are those choices? And that’s for each of us to decide. Again, it comes back to the autonomy piece, right? But it’s a really important question. And then the, and then it’s okay, how is that affected by celebrities?

[00:07:44] Abbie: Especially, like, I mentioned parasocial relationships before. Especially when maybe there’s, there are celebrities or people you’ve followed for a long time, feel connected to in some way, and you’re, and you’re met with images that are making you [00:08:00] question yourself, question, your worth, and then the conversation’s being shut down under the guise of body autonomy, right?

[00:08:10] Abbie: And that’s where I start being like, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. No.” We have to be able to have a conversation about the culture without getting shut down under the guise of individual choice. That’s where I’m seeing this huge issue with like a nuanced gray area conversation. It’s just getting shut down.

[00:08:32] Stephanie: Yeah.

[00:08:33] Abbie: Right?

[00:08:34] Stephanie: Yeah, because to me, if you think… Because my work is a lo- lot of it is on, cognitive behavior coaching, and when you think about black and white thinking-

[00:08:43] Abbie: Mm-hmm …

[00:08:43] Stephanie: right? The all or nothing thinking, like it’s- Mm-hmm … either this way or this way, that’s a sign of dysregulation. That’s a sign that there’s fear, right?

[00:08:53] Stephanie: You’re just, like you can only see it one way. So for me, shutting down the conversation [00:09:00] is just a sign that we are afraid of having the conversation, that two things can be true at the same time. We can have- Right … body autonomy and discuss the body… Not the body of the person, but the situation that led the person to do this and the impact that that person had.

[00:09:18] Stephanie: The two can be true at the same time for me. A lot of people-

[00:09:21] Abbie: Same …

[00:09:22] Stephanie: don’t agree.

[00:09:23] Abbie: Same. I think, the cultural critique has to be something we’re allowed to do without being sh- like, kind of shamed. And at the same time, I think it’s very frustrating when I’d argue the much louder conversation is the one that’s in favor of weight loss in our culture and always has been.

[00:09:45] Abbie: So it’s really hard when, the minority voices who are trying to just express concern or, critique of the lack of, Something that really concerns me, for example, is the lack of informed consent with [00:10:00] going on these medications for weight loss. And again, me even saying that, someone might be like, “Oh, so you’re just against them.”

[00:10:07] Abbie: No, I’m talking about informed consent. And so there’s just a really emotional response to anything somebody says when evaluating what’s happening, and I really just want people to be able to do that critique for themselves without feeling shut down because somebody else has a different personal lived experience than them.

[00:10:28] Abbie: And that’s what’s also happening with the celebrity. You see, like, if, if something comes up on my feed where I see, like, Ariana Grande or Demi Moore or whatever the celebrity is that people are talking about, most of the comments land in that-

[00:10:43] Stephanie: Either- …

[00:10:43] Abbie: binary all or nothing, like you said, Stephanie. It’s like one person’s like, “Oh my gosh,

[00:10:48] Abbie: are we allowed to be concerned yet?” And another person’s like, “Stop, they’re just living their life.” Like, you never know what’s going on with somebody’s body. We’ve gotta be able to say, “Wait, what’s the actual material [00:11:00] conversation here that needs to happen, and how is this affecting people, um, mentally, physically, emotionally?”

[00:11:07] Abbie: You know?

[00:11:08] Stephanie: Yeah, because they’re… To me, I’ll come back to responsibility. By default of their employment, their career choices, these people become a reflection of our culture, of our society And by engaging in public performance, they’re engaging in that role of being a symbol of what we are living. So to me, by default of engaging in their profession, just like I’m engaging in my profession to be on social media, there’s some things that comes along with that.

[00:11:43] Stephanie: Which is not, it’s not okay to critique their body, but it’s okay to look at their body as a body that is a reflection of our society and critiquing that without making it about the human being behind the body, if that makes sense.

[00:11:58] Abbie: It makes so much sense. [00:12:00] Where are you landing at this point with responsibility?

[00:12:04] Abbie: Like, what would it mean to you- Yeah … for someone to kind of hold that when they’re s- as visible as they are in the culture?

[00:12:15] Stephanie: You know, I had to ask myself that question personally. Mm-hmm. In consideration to GLP-1, because I live in a fat body, and automatically I’ve had the engagement with medical people telling me I should be on the GLP-1, right?

[00:12:29] Stephanie: Wanting to prescribe me GLP-1, wanting to or recommending that that’s the solution to whatever problem I was facing at the time. So that questioning, I had to question myself, like is that accurate? And I think that’s what sent me off in the pursuit of creating… I just finished a series with, 12 different experts on GLP-1.

[00:12:50] Stephanie: Like, I really wanted to see, like, not what the narrative of marketing was telling me, but the real actual science behind this, and make [00:13:00] the decisions for me, but also consider what the impact of my decision would be on my clients, the people, my audience, because I believe I have a responsibility. I have a responsibility- Mm-hmm

[00:13:14] Stephanie: to name it. I have a responsibility to share my thoughts on it as a person who’s the target of that, be it in a fat, living in a fat body. So I believe that. I made the decision to not, uh, go down that path and find other solution for my health issue, but I, if I had made the decision, I would have had a responsibility to my audience.

[00:13:37] Stephanie: I would have had to explain it, not pretend that it wasn’t there and just- Because there’s so many people who do, do that, and I see them. They’re pretending it’s just natural weight loss when there is other things behind the scenes. So for me, I would have had a responsibility to name it, to say it, and to make sure people knew what I was doing.

[00:13:56] Stephanie: That’s my- Mm-hmm … my lens on [00:14:00] this.

[00:14:01] Abbie: Yeah. No, it’s interesting ’cause hearing you say that, what it makes me think of is, you know, questions I’ve asked myself about, you know, what are people expecting from celebrities? And- Expectation … right, and what kind of transparency do they owe anyone, any explanations or justifications?

[00:14:21] Abbie: And in theory, no. But if they’re, you know, if they’re shutting down the conversation and… I don’t know. I really grapple with this because I d- I do think, my hope would be there, if something was going on, and it’s true, we can never know what is going on with somebody based on their body. My hope would be that the people close to them, their team, their family, that they’re having those conversations.

[00:14:48] Abbie: That would be my hope, and that eventually that transparency is provided in whatever way feels safe for that person. But that’s my hope, that they’re getting the support and [00:15:00] the help that they need and deserve, and that people aren’t just overlooking it because of a culture that praises and applauds thinness and doesn’t question it.

[00:15:10] Abbie: But unfortunately, we live in a culture that does just that, you know?

[00:15:13] Stephanie: And we have a great example of that with Serena Williams, right? Right. Serena William is transparent.

[00:15:19] Abbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:20] Stephanie: Like, she has been transparent the whole time and, and we’re recording- Mm-hmm … this, she just had last week her first game back after four years of absence in her-

[00:15:29] Abbie: Mm-hmm

[00:15:30] Stephanie: Recently reduced size body, but she’s been transparent. And even being transparent, for me, It still rubs me the wrong way because she’s using her platform and, and I guess in her belief system it’s okay to send the message that women should be smaller and they have a tool to be smaller. And to me it’s like, man, like there’s millions of women looking at that.

[00:15:57] Abbie: Yep.

[00:15:57] Stephanie: And, and that’s the, if that’s the [00:16:00] message, you’re, thankfully you’re transparent about it, but you’re putting out into the world. And I guess it’s my own value system, my ethics that rub, that makes me look at that and say, “Wow,” like-

[00:16:13] Abbie: Well, for someone like you or- That’s the un-body autonomy Yeah. Like for someone like you or like me or so many people who have done this work to unlearn and continue to unlearn that, like, internalized anti-fat bias, that is proof of internalized anti-fat bias, right?

[00:16:30] Abbie: And so you’re, you’re watching it, you know, the transparency is just transparency around bias, right? So because that, that’s her saying, “Yeah, I, I do believe smaller bodies are healthier bodies, are more valuable bodies.” And so that’s painful to hear. That’s painful to hear in, like, your personal life in a vacuum, and then you’re talking about a person who is [00:17:00] held up as a role model, as one of the most- Iconic

[00:17:06] Abbie: gifted athletes of our time of… And they have a platform. They have a lot of money behind them, and that was also I think another complicating factor of this, right? Like the financial ties- Profit … in that situation. Um, but of course, follow the money in any of these situations. Um, that’s a huge issue when you see it, when you see bias and stigma being perpetuated, and then again coming back to then get shut down under the guise of personal choice, body autonomy, people deserve to do what they wanna do with their bodies.

[00:17:43] Abbie: And we don’t get to ask questions about the harm that it’s causing millions of people, and how many people are then gonna be feeling the pressure to do the same thing as a result.

[00:17:57] Stephanie: Yeah. A- and I think if you [00:18:00] look behind the strategy of this individual, I think it was the strategic decision of using her influence for influencing people to then purchase the product so there’s more profit and coming to their family for selling the particular form of GLP-1.

[00:18:19] Stephanie: I can’t remember what it is that she’s selling. Um- And it is also for me a demonstration of how powerful anti-fat bias is.

[00:18:30] Abbie: Yeah.

[00:18:31] Stephanie: My first reaction when I saw the ad, I’m like, “Wow, what a great example of how powerful it is-

[00:18:40] Stephanie: That this individual of the caliber and, uh, all the thing they achieved, they still feel not good enough.

[00:18:48] Abbie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think it’s also important to say, especially, like, as someone with so much privilege, I think when I [00:19:00] originally wrote the article, I, I said, “You know, I’m not even gonna talk about Serena,” because, the racism inherent in diet culture, the layers of oppression involved in this, no one person deserves to be held up as, and/or have the expectation to challenge, you know, what is centuries of, of oppression, and nor do I know what it’s like to move through the world like that.

[00:19:25] Abbie: It’s just like you a- you and I are both saying, it’s like, what is the impact of this, and how do we have the conversation and allow people to bring their grief, bring their anger, bring their doubts about their own choices, um, bring their questions, and have a more complete conversation rather than just the, like, incessant marketing, which is what we’re experiencing.

[00:19:53] Abbie: We are not being given the full picture, and when we try, as professionals in this space, [00:20:00] in the anti-dieting space, to, like, give people the, quote-unquote, other side of the conversation, it’s seen as being, um, I don’t know what the right word is. But it’s like, no, I’m just try- I’m trying to add to the conversation with the stuff that’s not being told, the, the research that’s not being highlighted, the misinformation that’s being spread.

[00:20:23] Abbie: So I don’t know, Stephanie. I have so many concerns around that, just the way that this is affecting people.

[00:20:30] Stephanie: Well, it’s the, as I, when I was producing the, the series, the Beyond GLP-1 series, like, it’s, we are only aware of a small percentage of all the harm that’s being caused, and when you start digging into the marketing ploy and the science, we’re just, we’re not even aware of how much is coming to us as far as harm in years to come caused by this.[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Stephanie: And I think for me, the most potent is the mental harm that will stay- Mm-hmm … within women for, again, years and decades to come from that period that we’re in right now. The grief that you were talking about earlier, right? The grief that people are experiencing because of that, and I’ve encountered in my work, and I’m sure you do as well, some of my clients who’ve, were working with me three, four years ago who, of the potency of what’s happening right now, have questioned their decision and- made the choice to go on the GLP-1 to have the relief from that grief that they were feeling

[00:21:48] Abbie: Yes.

[00:21:49] Abbie: You know what I’m seeing is I think one of the most destabilizing things for people is to watch maybe influencers that they’ve followed in this space do just [00:22:00] that, um, because it… And it’s, it’s really difficult. And then they’re very publicly talking about their journey on GLP-1s and, um, praising them and calling them, the making them finally feel normal again around food.

[00:22:18] Abbie: That’s something I hear from folks who have kind of changed their tune. And, you know, taking a 180 from, , they once felt like a safe space for people, a space where weight loss wasn’t gonna be discussed, where it was about body liberation, it was about, pursuing health without weight loss, without shrinking, and now they’re publicly talking about their pursuit of weight loss on a GLP-1 and It’s, it’s happening a lot.

[00:22:49] Abbie: It’s happening a lot, and it’s happening loudly. Once again, I think that’s the problem, is a lot of this is just louder than the people that aren’t making that choice. [00:23:00] And so it starts to feel like that’s what everyone is doing, and that’s not true. And I guess I really want people to hear that, too, is like the loudest voices are those voices.

[00:23:09] Abbie: Absolutely. That doesn’t mean everyone’s doing it, nor does that mean conforming is the answer. Never has conforming been the answer to any oppressive system. But it can feel very tempting, it can feel safe, it can feel protective, it can feel all of those things, especially when you’re having a very natural fear-based response to all of this.

[00:23:34] Abbie: Like your nervous system is constantly dysregulated, and your ability to live in your body in a neutral way is constantly being challenged, whether it’s by social media videos, by marketing, by celebrities, by your doctor, by your friend, by family members who are making comments now because now there’s this new way to lose weight or…

[00:23:58] Abbie: it is very hard to live in [00:24:00] your body right now and kind of live in a bubble, right? W- that bubble is constantly being popped. And to give yourself as much grace as you can and let yourself process things, and try not to make choices when you’re in that state of fear, I guess, is what I want people to know.

[00:24:26] Stephanie: And I think when people, are questioning what their choice will be, and I think that’s where our conversation about like not just body autonomy, but the other side as well, is very important to have publicly because there is hundreds, maybe thousands of people who are gonna listen to this interview, and that’s a different input that goes into looking at how they’re gonna make their choices.

[00:24:55] Stephanie: And when we take just one angle of the conversation and we shut down the [00:25:00] rest, we are not allowing for other people to hear different angle. Like you were talking about body positivity. I did an interview with, Virgie Tovar about how many influencer who have moved on from body positivity to GLP-1, h- part of the reason why they’re moving on is because the Their intention with being an influencer in the first was a personal pursuit, not-

[00:25:34] Abbie: Mm-hmm

[00:25:34] Stephanie: a systemic approach. Exactly,

[00:25:37] Abbie: Stephanie.

[00:25:37] Stephanie: Right?

[00:25:37] Abbie: Exactly. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:39] Stephanie: Like, That’s exactly right … do my work from a systemic with feminist value, and I think about system alongside with the individual, and I help the individual live within a system. That’s my work. But I think further than just me and my body, it goes into the system as well, and I think that’s a lens we don’t hear.

[00:25:57] Stephanie: And only in conversation like me and you can [00:26:00] we ha- can we bring that to the people listening to say, “Oh, never thought about it this way.”

[00:26:05] Abbie: Well, what I can say for sure for myself is that’s the only reason I have maintained recovery from an eating disorder, is because of the systems view. Like, if I had continued to just focus on my own personal experience, I’m sure I would have returned back to it.

[00:26:23] Abbie: Um, and it’s been maybe, I don’t know, 15 years or so for me of recovering, and it was not until I really saw the roots of diet culture and I really understood the patriarchal, white supremacy, ableism, and I really started taking this lens of like, oh, this, this is actually… This cuts to the core of my values and my identity and who I believe I am and who I want-

[00:26:54] Abbie: Kept recovering where, like, even if I started having the thoughts or the desire [00:27:00] to go back to that way of living in my body, of controlling my body, of controlling food, there was this, stopgap of, but that’s not who I am or who I wanna be in the world, in the systems, at the systems level. And so I think when we see people kind of hop around trend to trend, whether it’s, dieting trend or then treating body positivity like a trend, and then treating anti-diet like that’s the new thing, and then going on the GLP-1, I think if you can kind of start to notice that pattern in people wh- especially out there who are influencers, like Virgie was talking about, I think that’s your clue that was never a systems-level approach.

[00:27:43] Abbie: It was always a personal, potentially financial approach, too, to-

[00:27:50] Stephanie: Yeah …

[00:27:51] Abbie: yeah, what they wanted to represent, you know?

[00:27:55] Stephanie: And I think that it’s… So for me in my personal journey-

[00:27:59] Abbie: Yeah …

[00:27:59] Stephanie: [00:28:00] when I was, when I learned about socialization and I learned about systemic issue, for me it fueled- Yes … my journey of never going back.

[00:28:10] Stephanie: Same. Like, it showed me it, and it validated my pain, number one. Mm-hmm. , It was nothing wrong with me why I was falling victim and why I suffered for 25 years. It was because it was systemic. I’m like, oh. It’s like I found, salvation. It’s oh my God, that wasn’t my fault all along? I was just, socialized and a victim of this thing.

[00:28:32] Stephanie: Okay. Now I can see a future, I can see hope, because I can change my thoughts and change my belief system so that now, 2026, I did that work 10 years ago, but now , I’m 2026, a doctor prescribed GLP-1. I’m like, no. Mm-hmm. Like, no. Like, it’s- I need a

[00:28:50] Abbie: different option. Yeah.

[00:28:51] Stephanie: Yeah, like it’s not- Yeah … even a question of what I’m…

[00:28:54] Stephanie: it’s just an o- because fundamentally I’ve changed at the core, not just… I [00:29:00] don’t wanna use the word superficially, but just not at, the top. I just went down and changed my belief system. So to me that was salvation, that work. I

[00:29:09] Abbie: relate to that so much, Stephanie. It’s like you changed out the actual software, right?

[00:29:15] Abbie: You stopped trying to run a new program on old software, you know? But you actually went in and was like, “Oh my gosh, I have to deprogram this and install something new over time,” right?

[00:29:28] Stephanie: On a deeper level. And I think that’s a conversation when we talk about the media culture and celebrity culture, and we name it, and we say there’s a responsibility behind that, I, for me, I know I’m acknowledging the systemic issue by having that conversation instead of avoiding it.

[00:29:48] Abbie: Hun- 100%. I, I think, you know what I think a lot about is, ’cause, we were saying that a lot of times this, this conversation about celebrities or about the culture at large gets shut down with body [00:30:00] autonomy or your body, your choice. I think a lot about, like, well, what’s the difference between autonomy and liberation, right?

[00:30:07] Abbie: Like, because I think, yes, auto- yes, autonomy, your body, your choice-

[00:30:12] Abbie: You have the right to make choices about your own body, but I think that liberation, which is what I want for, for people that I work with, for people I love, for everybody, literally everybody, I think it’s, it requires dismantling the systems that are constraining those choices in the first place, right?

[00:30:33] Abbie: Um, and I guess it, I guess this is coming into mind because of what you were saying, Stephanie. You were, you were talking about the level of the individual versus the level of the system, and I feel like autonomy operates at the level of the individual.

[00:30:45] Stephanie: Yes.

[00:30:46] Abbie: But liberation operates at the level of the system, right?

[00:30:51] Abbie: Um, I don’t know. What do you… Do you think that’s an important- I

[00:30:55] Stephanie: think liberation to m- so I’m just gonna… We’re just, like, [00:31:00] like I’m playing on the words here, but for me- Yeah … liberation is, is like seeing the system, naming it, and with my autonomy, choosing to opt out.

[00:31:15] Abbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:15] Stephanie: Because if I didn’t have the… To me, if I didn’t have the autonomy, I could not opt out.

[00:31:20] Abbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:21] Stephanie: And, and for me as a feminist, I keep thinking about my grandmother. So- Mm-hmm … I’ve said this story many time, but I’ll say it to you since you’re here. My grandmother, about seven years ago, sat at a dinner next, beside me, and she put her hand on my thigh and she said, “You’re living the life I wish I could have lived.

[00:31:40] Stephanie: Keep going.” Mm.

[00:31:40] Abbie: Mm-hmm. ‘

[00:31:41] Stephanie: Cause my grandmother- Love that … was born in the 1920s-

[00:31:45] Abbie: Yeah …

[00:31:46] Stephanie: in the French culture, which forced women to have 10 to 15 children. So she was wed at 17, and then there was no contraceptive, so she just had for 20 years straight she had children. [00:32:00] Because she didn’t have a choice. She didn’t have autonomy.

[00:32:03] Stephanie: Like, she couldn’t even exercise the autonomy. Was either she had children and get married, or she became a nun. Like, there was just two choice.

[00:32:11] Abbie: Mm-hmm. And she could have said, “Yeah, my autonomy was making that choice between being a nun or having the kids,” but, like-

[00:32:17] Stephanie: Yeah …

[00:32:17] Abbie: that, that’s, and that’s kinda what we’re talking about right now, right?

[00:32:20] Abbie: Yeah. Like, is that… Sure, that’s autonomy, but is that freedom? That’s not. Right? It’s not. I mean, I think that’s such a beautiful example. Thank you for sharing that. I, um, I can rel- I relate. My grandmother was born in the same time, and, um, I can really relate to that. It makes me think, like, it’s, it’s like we’re kind of, um, brainwashed into thinking that liberation is us getting to choose from this menu we’re handed.

[00:32:47] Abbie: But liberation is, like, tossing that shit aside and being like, “What do I want for myself?” Not, “What is on this shitty menu that you gave me?” Right? Like, I wanna order my own [00:33:00] thing, you know? Um-

[00:33:02] Stephanie: And I think it start with a question, and like, and that’s gonna tell you a lot about culture, but why do you want what you want?

[00:33:09] Abbie: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:33:11] Stephanie: Right? If you, if you… So if you take a person like, uh, this tennis player, like, why is it that you want, after achieving all of that, like, why is it that you want that? Like, that question needs to be first between, yes, I can do it, but why do you want it? Like, why do you wanna lose weight?

[00:33:28] Abbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:29] Stephanie: So that you can then open the door to the system and understanding the system. Then after that- Mm-hmm … then to me, that’s a decision that you can make of true autonomy. I don’t think it’s true autonomy before you understand why you want what you want.

[00:33:47] Abbie: Yeah. Like, the choices don’t exist in isolation.

[00:33:51] Abbie: They’re shaped by all of our, like… They’re shaped by our, like, early childhood, by stigma, by systemic bias, [00:34:00] capitalism, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. That’s so well said, Stephanie. I, I, c- I fully agree.

[00:34:06] Stephanie: I, I wanna go off topic of, of this body autonomy, but I wanna bring an angle, because you have… Uh, anti-diet is your niche, but you also talk about OCD a lot, right?

[00:34:20] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:20] Abbie: Yeah.

[00:34:21] Stephanie: Do you think that that neurodivergency has a unique way of looking at that, that influence based on how your brain function?

[00:34:32] Abbie: A unique way of looking at what?

[00:34:35] Stephanie: At how people perceive bodies- Mm … and the grief that they experience when they’re looking at what’s being presented by GLP-1

[00:34:46] Abbie: So, that’s a great question.

[00:34:48] Abbie: I think about learning about my own OCD and my own neurodivergence, it, it actually, it taught me a lot about why I was in the pain that I was in, [00:35:00] like- Yeah … cognitively all the time. And I actually love that you brought this up because for me, what OCD has meant in my life is it’s, it’s not really behavioral at all.

[00:35:10] Abbie: You know, a lot of people picture OCD in this really kind of stigmatized way of like, “Oh, you just are really clean,” or, “You, like, tap things,” or, “You flick light switches,” or whatever. And I’m like, “No, I don’t do anything of- anything like that.” Um, I mean, there are people that do, for sure. Mine has always been about, um, intrusive thoughts, so loops that just are on repeat in my mind.

[00:35:32] Abbie: And if… What I actually think about a lot lately is how diet culture has created the conditioning for constant intrusive thoughts for people who don’t even have obsessive compulsive disorder. Like, I think that’s, that’s kind of the, the fabric of the culture right now is just how many of us live with those constant intrusive thoughts about our body, about food, about other people’s bodies, about comparison.

[00:35:57] Abbie: And so I think learning about [00:36:00] my own, you know, tr- true kind of, like, diagnosed actual obsessive compulsive disorder taught me a lot about how to, how to kind of manage, heal through that. And, but it’s also given me this… I kind of, like, look at the world we’re living in right now and I’m like, man, it’s just, it’s, like, manufacturing that for people who don’t even- Yes

[00:36:25] Abbie: have that mental health struggle. Um, so that’s one way that I, I see it a lot, ’cause I see a lot of… We’re kind of prescribed really obsessive behaviors via diet culture. Mm-hmm. Um-

[00:36:37] Stephanie: The phone …

[00:36:37] Abbie: a lot of… Yeah. Like, a lot of rigid- Yeah … ways of thinking. The all-or-nothing thinking is a big part of OCD .

[00:36:45] Abbie: i’ve heard people call it the doubt disorder, which is a really fantastic way of describing it. Yeah Because it’s like you’re always trying to find and be 100% certain about everything. So you’re trying to do all this research all the time in your brain or even, actually in life to try to [00:37:00] be 100% sure that whatever you’re doing, you’re gonna be okay or it’s the right choice.

[00:37:05] Abbie: And of course that doesn’t exist, not in the world of bodies, of food or anything. But our culture is manufacturing that idea constantly and giving people such a distressing experience of the body and of the world as a result. So I guess that’s something I’ve been thinking about l- a lot lately.

[00:37:26] Stephanie: It’s interesting because when I read that in your bio, I don’t know if you know the singer Luke Combs.

[00:37:31] Stephanie: He’s a country singer. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:32] Abbie: Yeah.

[00:37:33] Stephanie: Uh, he has OCD, right?

[00:37:34] Abbie: Oh, I didn’t know that.

[00:37:35] Stephanie: Yeah. Well, yeah, I did not know that neither because I was lis- Shout out to

[00:37:38] Abbie: Luke.

[00:37:39] Stephanie: I was on the road trip and I was listening to a number of interview I wanted on a podcast and that one of them was him being, uh, with a podcaster that I listen to.

[00:37:48] Stephanie: And he was talking about OCD in which- Mm-hmm … it, like it describing exactly wanted to be sure with finding the answer to everything. For him- Yeah … it was not behavior, it was like you. [00:38:00] And it got me thinking as well about the obsession about being thin. Yes. Like and, and wanting to resolve that- Yes

[00:38:10] Stephanie: in every way possible and how in a way GLP-1 HERA right now is solving that very easily for people. Mm-hmm. Like it’s… And it’s, it… to me, I don’t want to say they’re people with a certain neurodivergency. They’re not… I think they’re even more targeted because- Mm-hmm … of the way their brain operates to fall victim-

[00:38:36] Abbie: Absolutely

[00:38:37] Stephanie: of the marketing.

[00:38:38] Abbie: Absolutely. I think anyone with a co-occurring mental health condition is going to be, um, much more vulnerable to messaging around body and food, especially because it’s sold to us as like a sort of salvation and a solution to anything we could be suffering with. I [00:39:00] also am someone who lives with multiple chronic illnesses.

[00:39:02] Abbie: That is a huge gateway for people into disordered eating and dieting. Um, you mentioned paleo at the start of the episode. Um, movements like that, diets like that kind of frame themselves as something for people with autoimmune disease, for, you know, there’s a- all of- without scientific backing, right? Um, and so a lot of people who are struggling with chronic illness fell victim to that.

[00:39:30] Abbie: And then let’s say you have anxiety, you have depression, you have ADHD, you have OCD, you have what- whatever it might be, your brain In the world we live in, is living in a condition where it feels less safe because of, because our world isn’t built for neurodivergent brains. And so what does diet culture offer us?

[00:39:51] Abbie: Safety. It offers us safety at the core. It’s like, “Here, do this, you’ll be okay. Eat this way, you’ll be okay. Lose weight, you’ll be okay. Everything will be better.” [00:40:00] So I 100% think if you are struggling in any way, like mentally and emotionally, you’re going to be more vulnerable to this messaging because it’s going to feel like a way to survive what can feel unsurvivable in your own head.

[00:40:18] Abbie: You know?

[00:40:18] Stephanie: It, so you’re talking about health, and I wanna bring this conversation to health issue, because that’s what, uh, Louise Adam was… She’s talking about GLP and marketing. Mm-hmm. Now the conversation is broadening beyond just simple weight loss. Oh, I know. Now it’s about cancer, and it’s about PCOS, and they’re broadening their scope, so now the people who didn’t feel like GLP-1- Mm-hmm

[00:40:42] Stephanie: was for them-

[00:40:43] Abbie: Mm-hmm …

[00:40:44] Stephanie: now they’re opening up to a new market of people that are vulnerable.

[00:40:48] Abbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:49] Stephanie: And then they’re gonna become the next-

[00:40:52] Abbie: Mm-hmm. Target audience … target

[00:40:54] Stephanie: victim- Yeah … of the

[00:40:55] Abbie: GLP-1s-

[00:40:55] Stephanie: Yeah … through their health issue.

[00:40:57] Abbie: Yeah. Uh, it is. It’s [00:41:00] happening. I already see it happening in my practice, people coming to me being like, “Oh, Abbey, my doctor mentioned this offhandedly that, like, this, maybe this could help with my inflammation.”

[00:41:10] Abbie: That’s a word that gets thrown around a lot. I’m like, “Well, let’s talk about inflammation. Can you talk to me specifically about what, like, those markers are, like, what’s going on?” Because that word is getting a bit co-opted, but, um, I’m seeing it a lot. I’m seeing it a lot. Um, it’s even moving into, like, addiction spaces and, um, yeah.

[00:41:33] Abbie: It’s, it’s super tricky. Um, and we don’t have the long-term data on it yet, so it’s, it’s scary that it’s just being kinda thrown around willy-nilly, you know? That’s how I feel. It’s all willy-nilly.

[00:41:46] Stephanie: And I… It’s willy-nilly, and it, if you wanna circle back to the beginning of the conversation, I think again it’s a…

[00:41:53] Stephanie: Because when I start talking about that, people are saying, “Well, you just, like, are against it, even for- Yeah … a health issue.” I’m [00:42:00] like, “No.” Yeah. “That’s not what I’m talking.” No. “I’m just saying there’s no supporting data to cancer and GLP-1. It’s just a collection of data.

[00:42:08] Stephanie: There’s actually no control, random trial to prove that, or any mechanism that is known. So before we go and talk about that, do you know about this?”

[00:42:20] Abbie: Well, what I think I would, like, say to clarify too, if they find out that there’s that these medications can help with … Oh my God, that- Great

[00:42:31] Abbie: I am, I am here for it. Trust me, on a personal family level, I would be thrilled. I have personal connection to that. It would be really meaningful in my life. My hope is that if that’s the case and if we find other uses for this medication, that it can be deployed in the way that it is deployed for its original purpose, which was diabetes, not how it’s being used to maximize the side effect of weight loss.

[00:42:57] Abbie: Right now we’re seeing fat phobia and [00:43:00] anti-fat bias infiltrate the way that it’s being used and prescribed so that people are having really adverse effects. It’s higher risk. If we are developing something to treat a condition, there’s an ethical duty to minimize the side effects, such as shutting down people’s hunger cues, making them nauseous, slowing gastric emptying, c- putting them at risk for kidney issues, whatever it might be.

[00:43:26] Abbie: My hope is that we find a way to use it for those purposes if we find evidence for that that doesn’t compromise people’s health in other ways, because it is definitely compromising people’s health to shut down their internal cues around hunger and fullness and appetite. And again, I’m holding space for nuance.

[00:43:49] Abbie: That’s not true for every single person out there, but by and large, that’s what they’re doing.

[00:43:54] Stephanie: Yes.

[00:43:54] Abbie: And so that would be my hope, that we can find a way to use them [00:44:00] that doesn’t harm people in other ways in the process.

[00:44:06] Stephanie: And again, this is a great example of nuanced conversation, the gray zone, the middle point.

[00:44:11] Abbie: Yeah.

[00:44:11] Stephanie: It’s like both side can be true- Yeah … at the same time, and we need to be able to hold the space for both truth-

[00:44:18] Abbie: Yes. Yeah …

[00:44:18] Stephanie: at the same time, so we can have- Yes … an informed consent at the end, so we’ll wrap it up to the end in the end of you, but that’s all about informed consent, and the only space we can have informed consent is when we can have nuanced con- um, conversation that acknowledge all aspect.

[00:44:35] Abbie: Yeah.

[00:44:36] Stephanie: Not just the narrative that we want to bring forward.

[00:44:40] Abbie: Yeah.

[00:44:42] Stephanie: It’s a pleasure to have this conversation with you.

[00:44:45] Abbie: Oh, Stephanie, I’m so glad we finally made this happen- Yeah … after all these years. This is good.

[00:44:51] Stephanie: Where can people find you? And, um, I, I’ve talked about Substack, but you also have your podcasts?[00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Abbie: Yeah. I would say the places that I am hanging out are, I am a one-woman show on Instagram, basically. I cannot handle any other social media, so that is the only place you will find me. And that’s just @abbyatwoodwellness on Instagram. My Substack is, abbyatwoodwellness.substack.com, and it’s Full Plate Podcast is my podcast, and you can kinda find more about that on the Substack page itself.

[00:45:30] Abbie: Other than that, I have a group membership that I run, and that’s on my website, which is just abbyatwoodwellness.com, and that’s me.

[00:45:38] Stephanie: And your specialty is chronic illness, because that’s your lived experience. You also- And

[00:45:44] Abbie: neurodivergence, yeah …

[00:45:45] Stephanie: neurodivergency, which is- Mm-hmm … a need. Mm-hmm. , So highly recommend that people go and check you out, because I think those specialty is in part what helps people not…

[00:45:56] Stephanie: develop the tool to not [00:46:00] fall victim to the propaganda in the future, but really being met in their needs and their very, unique way that food and body image shows up for them, because we’re not all the same.

[00:46:14] Abbie: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more.

[00:46:17] Stephanie: Thank you.