84-Moving Away From Using Weight Loss As a Marketing Tool with Damali Fraiser

UYC084-Moving Away From Using Weight Loss As a Marketing Tool with Damali Fraiser

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Welcome back, my dear colleague. Today we're going to continue on that topic of desire to lose weight and weight loss, but we're going to talk about it from a angle of marketing and how we can move away. I'm using weight loss as a marketing tool. I have a guest for you today. Her name is Damali Fraser. She is a kettlebell expert, an author. She leads the opposition to diet culture in the fitness and specifically kettlebells community and she trains professional in a. Size inclusive, trauma informed approach to fitness and kettlebell, which makes fitness accessible to all body. And I wanted to have her on the show so we can both share our experience of leading successful business without co opting.

Weight loss or dangling the weight loss subtly in our message and how we create success. And onto that topic, I want to invite all of you in a training that I'm hosting in a couple days, October the 13th, titled How to Coach the Desire to Lose Weight. And I recognize that It's short notice, it's only in two days and likely many of you will listen to this podcast and it will be well beyond October the 13th, so No fear, we're going to make this recording accessible to you all.

So if you go in the show note and click the link, register for How to Coach the Desire to Lose Weight, you'll access the recording. And this training is so cool. Like I just was reviewing. The slide in the workbook for this training, and we're going to deep dive into the minutiae of why people want to lose weight. We're going to talk about dieting. Does it work? What is the research saying? How do people create the desire to lose weight in their mind, in their body? We're going to talk about the space. spectrum of eating behavior, we're going to talk about the documented side effect of dieting, we're going to talk about cognitive behavioral coaching model, and why it's the gold standard for coaching the desire to lose weight.

And body image, and I'm gonna give you a step by step approach to coach the desire to, lose weight. And we're gonna talk about also body neutrality, what it is and what it's not, and why it is, in my opinion. The most powerful tool for women in our current society. Now, maybe in 50 years, 100 years from now will be different. But today it is my firm belief being in this industry for eight years now that it is the best approach to solve and prevent. body image and therefore prevent people being the victim of the weight loss industry and diet culture. And I'm going to teach you by asking you the most powerful question that I use every single time I coach body image. And it's this one. Why do we have a body? the answer to that question is what fuels the desire to lose weight, what's fueled people going on and off diets. And truly it's what fueled my work. Like it's the misunderstanding why we have a body as women is what creates my business. Once I teach the answer to that question to women and we rewire their brain and their nervous system to think about their body differently, it's liberation.

So we're going to deep dive into that question in the training. And I'm going to show you the way that I answer the question, the way I ask it to my client and the way that I answer that question. We're also, I'm going to give you our body image roadmap, like the workbook itself is loaded with training process framework for you to apply with your client. So I hope to see all of you that are listening to this podcast, either in the recording or live on October the 13th. Okay. Spoke of that training enough. Now we're going to move into the interview with Damali around how to build a successful business without co opting weight loss. And if you are a body fitness person. I highly encourage you to go and give a follow to Damali because I think she's going to inspire you in transforming your business in an on diet approach.

Let's roll in the interview and I'll see you on the next podcast.

Stephanie: welcome to the show, Damali.

Damali: Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Stephanie: I am excited to introduce you. To my community, but I'm just curious to get to know you better. So I've been following you on social media. I think it's been six months already that somehow we got together on social media and I've been spying you.

Stephanie: So here you are in the podcast. So we were talking just before recording. I wanted to record this. How did you came to the world of fitness? Let's start with that question.

Damali: Yes, thank you for inviting me and I love it and I love to actually get in community and connect with folks. So, first off, I'll just say anybody who is out there, you want to talk DM. And, you can come and chat with me anytime. I really appreciate it. It can be, you know, lonely as you try to transverse to a different plane of thought and mindset and having people that we could be a community with is like the foundations of everything I do.

Damali: So for me, fitness is nothing without community care. fitness is just a representation or metaphor for community because all we're doing is building up that connection within ourselves that we want to see everywhere else and a positive connection and uplifting connection. and that's why I really believe, you know, fitness is not about, what you're going to lose.

Damali: It's all about what you're going to gain. I love that. Thank you. you know, so I came to. Fitness, as really growing up, thinking fitness was only like, cardio and, you know, pink dumbbells, nothing against pink, but very small dumbbells. And, I was a mother of two who was very tired. I was about 30 and I was already thinking like the world was over.

Damali: That I was exhausted. I was picking up from daycare, dropping off and. My focus was really on finding some fitness for my kids. I wasn't even thinking about me. and I went to look for martial arts thinking the discipline and commitment would be good and self defense because I have two daughters. And, and I was invited to a Muay Thai school.

Damali: For those folks who don't know, Muay Thai is the national sport of Thailand. It is Thai kickboxing, where they use elbows and punches and knees and kicks. So quite aggressive. and I was invited to join in on the kids class, and I was really feeling like I needed to like, re find myself, and I hopped in, and I like absolutely fell in love with hitting things.

Stephanie: that's a good slogan.

Damali: Yes, I fell in love with the movement, and the Thai people, and the culture. what I'll say is like, you know, I know we have time to chat, I'll say that I was very much engrossed in how the movement could help me lose weight very quickly. And, I became an amateur fighter. So I was automatically in a sport that is oriented around weight classes.

Stephanie: So you had to meet weight.

Damali: Meet weight. And always, it was always better to be at a smaller weight. As it is in the world. Yeah. Always better. Oh, you finished that one. You know what? You would be better if you were in the weight class down.

Damali: You would have been better, you'd been faster if you were in the weight class down. So I lost 90 pounds, 90 plus pounds. and I was told I looked like a man. I immediately became like uncomfortable in my own skin and realized that what I thought would bring all the joy betrayed me. It totally did not. I was never good enough. I know it's never small enough. And then, I found kettlebells and as a mature. Mature. Yeah, that's another name, mature. Well seasoned is what I like to say. I'm well seasoned. Yeah.

Stephanie: I call myself wise. Okay. That's another way.

Damali: Yes. I needed something to encourage me to try to prevent injury, to build functional strength and I was more of a power athlete. I knew I was never going to be, you know, petite 110, 120. person. So being strong really was like my toolkit and I found kettlebells and absolutely loved it for its efficiency and time when you're a mom and you have no time, like getting it in 15, 20 minutes, feeling powerful. I hated running and I can get that explosive activity without the high impact. So it really just became something where I was like, how come people don't know about this, like. where has this been? I started teaching kettlebells.

Stephanie: And that's why you're here today because that's how I met you as a non diet kettlebell coach. I'm like, who is this? And I started digging into your account. So kettlebell came to you as a way of feeling powerful, correct?

Damali: Feeling strong, explosive power, low impact.

Stephanie: you teach kettlebell not from the angle of weight loss.

Damali: Absolutely not. I have been told many times in my career that, you know, if I want it to be successful, I needed to have a results oriented offer. And the results was. Oh, you're gonna lose 10 pounds in 30 days. Oh, I can promise you, you'll lose five pounds in the next 15 days. And I said, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Stephanie: Let's talk about that because in my program, I get professionals that come to me. Learning about body image and about coaching the mind from a cognitive behavioral world. And I coach a lot of fitness professionals. And one of the hanging point is always, well, in my industry, the marketing tool that everybody uses is weight loss. And it's true for us as nutritionists as well. We're taught to use weight loss. So let's debate or talk about this question. How can we Market our business. Let's talk about fitness without using weight loss. What's your words or your thoughts on that?

Damali: well, I mean, there's a mindset shift because as you said, there's an industry approach and standard. Which has been tip as the top ranking approach, which is where diet culture has made it the perception that is the priority above everything and it's making people a lot of money.

Stephanie: Yeah, and it does make a lot of money. I in my industry makes a lot of money and I'm sure it makes as much money in your industry as I would make more money if I sold weight loss than what I do right now

Damali: because it's destined to fail. Yes, the repeat customer is their ultimate goal. Yeah, not the sustained longevity that we can get through looking at activities of daily living. If we can look at what is the most present thing in our life outside of our awake time is sleep. When I started the process of teaching a person with kettlebells and I have a program called Coaches Corner and I teach them how to teach it in an inclusive manner. The first thing we're talking about is your breathing.

Damali: The first movement. That we can successfully change and reorient is your breath. Are you breathing into your nose? Why aren't you? Are you able to open your ribcage? There's a mechanical function between your ribcage and your diaphragm. What do you know about how you breathe? Are you aware and conscious of it in order to get the most power output, be able to take in that air.

Damali: And I think that we underplay how much of an impact we can have on a person's life through the entirety of their life. By putting it into 30 days and 10 pounds versus a lifetime of air. That is what I'm trying to achieve. And even as I hear you taking a deep breath, like, what are we exhaling? All the garbage. Yeah. We let it go. All of the garbage that's taking us down, that wants to see us feel less than. With that exhale, it is such a beautiful thing.

Stephanie: For me, when I hear profound... Thoughts or words. It's like, it's almost like bringing joy to my body through my breath.

Damali: Absolutely. I am 100 percent with you.

Stephanie: So how is a professional, a fitness professional listening to this? How do they go counterculture? Because the culture of your industry is weight loss. You don't market using weight loss. and I know you train other professional. So how do you approach marketing for your students?

Damali: So the first thing I tell people at Coaches Corner is like, we have to start to understand who are you? Who do you know, who you are, where you stand, what your values are, centering your internal internally. And then who are you here to serve? Are you in community? Who are you in community with? So we hear people talking about detox your social media because who you're in community with, what you're consuming is more than the food you're eating.

Damali: So taking some time to really. take nutrition and nourishment to your whole environment and making sure that you're getting the nourishment you need from your community. So, taking away all the things that, even if they're people you love, but if the first thing you see every time you open your phone is, I'm big your back, or, here's my new lean product.

Damali: It is not going to help you move into the direction that you're trying to achieve. So, who are you? And who are you here to serve? And getting to know those people. And I'm very, specific in Coach's Corner about it being not about the problem you're solving. Not everybody feels that way. But I feel very strongly that in the sense of we always are addressing like you are not good enough.

Damali: You need to change your body. We never look at people's strengths. How can I be of service to you to help to uplift all the good things in your life?

Damali: To you feel more rooted versus how can I take away? How can I remove this weight? How can I sculpt you? I want to change my mindset, so I have to change my language. And then we start to coach in that same manner. How do we talk to people, reframe the way that we express a movement so that it's not, Oh, I'm going to fix you.

Damali: Because you're problematic, your movement is not right. Is it safe? Those are questions we have to ask. What does safety mean?

Stephanie: Yeah, because I know you teach about, sorry to interrupt, but the other piece that got me really interested is not only your marketing approach, but also a trauma informed approach to fitness. Tell me more about this because that's also something we hear a lot in my field of coaching, like trauma informed. How do we take a, or what does it mean in fitness?

Damali: Well, first of all, trauma is something that is very individual to each person. And,what we do to start off the process and coaches corner is consider this. Is a wealth of curiosity to come in and understand that a person brings with them their body and all of their experiences, which includes both conscious and unconscious trauma that they have experienced, and their behaviors, their emotional response their physical response in any one instance is all influenced.

Damali: By what they have experienced, you may know, and you may not know they may be in for able to inform you, but they may not because we're not entitled to disclosure. So, I need to now make those considerations, each and every time I'm training a person to what they're responding to, and how can I meet them where they're at every single day, every single workout.

Damali: I can't commit to one plan and be like, oh, we have to do it this way today. Because there could be a scent in the air that could have they walk in and they don't even realize it triggered them. The heart rate goes up, they feel a bit spooked. they don't not really so how do we get grounded, where are we going to, are we going to go in our movement practice in order for them to be in their body in that moment. And those are important parts of me teaching kettlebells because the kettlebell is very unstable. True. It creates instability by its nature, by its momentum. So, you naturally may feel unstable. And that in itself could be a point of trigger for a person getting used to working with a kettlebell. So if I don't Take note of that and apply that each time, then I'm missing out on a, like a significant, avenue for helping that person feel connected, helping that person uplift all of their strengths and gain confidence in their body.

Stephanie: I never thought about it that way, but that is exactly because. Trauma in itself is about unsafety and not being able to be safe and stabilizing I am not a professional at fitness, but I practice fitness in my own life and that's the challenge with kettlebell is like working all your core and your stabilizer.

Stephanie: Because it's unstable, so that could be very triggering. How do you approach people who come to you, who have used fitness to lose weight and have been traumatized by the abuse that fitness has done because of their desire to lose weight? How do we approach that?

Damali: with compassion, with a lot of compassion first.

Damali: and what do I mean by that? it is a grieving process. And it is, of all the things that we don't like doing as human beings, grieving is at the top of the list. Yeah, it's yucky. Yes, nobody wants to feel lost. Right. Deep loss. And there is deep body grief in that experience of trying to achieve this goal or this standard and never meeting it.

Damali: And then having to accept like that you, you may never meet it and maybe you don't want to anymore, but there's still loss in that. There's still a considerable amount of grieving that has to be let go through and movement and grounding can help you. Move through your grief, but we know like that journey never ends.

Damali: It's not. Oh, I'm healed or I've grieved and it'sover. It is an ongoing process that we can build in coping mechanisms that are positive that can help you to learn how to move through that. And to recognize it. I think that there's equal parts of people who are kind of angry at anti diet culture these days. because of how aggressive people are about rules of you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't lose weight and you shouldn't want to lose weight and you shouldn't. And that's exactly as you asked. There's like so many people. I've been there too. Like, the world wants you to be smaller. Of course you want a smiles. Do you want the heads turning and the embrace, and the welcoming that comes with it? A smaller body. Why, why would you judge a person for wanting to feel that, but helping to guide them through the grief of knowing that has something that has been lost it's left behind. And then just giving it space, right?

Damali: Those experiences, you know, each one will have to be kind of addressed, whether it was like gym environment. people will notice I have mirrors in my space. Lot of people be like, oh, you shouldn't have any mirrors. I know there's a rule, right? Yes. These are the rules. You're not non-diet. But I embrace seeing my own beauty. I also embrace. using it for form. I also embraced it practicing to see myself. Yeah. So there's a lot of nuance to how we heal through those previous experiences and not getting caught up in the rules, having more compassion and allowing the grieving process. As you use movement as a healing modality, I think all those things have to fit together.

Stephanie: Yeah, there's so many things I want to unpack here, but I think it's a specialty, like I work with people with the relationship to food and body image, but often I resource out to people like you and people who do your program to do the work on the relationship to movement, because that's a whole other sector.

Stephanie: Like, we have to move our body. It's not about dieting. It's just human body needs to move now. Understand fitness culture did some damage to that. Let's repair that, right? Yes. And I like to think of it as a trauma approach. We need to rebuild safety to moving our body when it's not centered around weight loss.

Damali: Yeah. Safety under load, right?

Stephanie: Yeah. But it's also interesting when you talk about the opposition to anti diet culture, right? Like now that we understand diet culture, we swung the pendulum to the other side. And now there's rules on how to do that. Like we're taking the same lands and we're applying rules to how to do anti diet culture too. That's not right in my view.

Damali: Not right in my view at all. And I've seen some really like great people feel like they don't feel welcome and belong in the community either. Right. Then we end up you know, debating on, well, I'm not body positive. I'm not this because of the harm that they've now encountered in these spaces.

Damali: And I think we need to address the harm before we dismantle the movement. It isn't the nature of anti diet that's trying to disrupt. That's trying to remove, the boundaries that held people. Outside of their bodies and bring them in. but the harm is coming from creating more hierarchies. Like, what's the best way?

Damali: What's the top right? These, this is the nature of it being, truly othering.

Stephanie: Yeah. What's the nature of oppressive system is hierarchy and power. Yes. And the right way of doing things. Like we're recreating an oppressive system to try to dismantle another one. Exactly. Exactly. So how do we navigate this?

Stephanie: What's your advice on this?

Damali: Well, we have to confront the harm and the, and remove the hierarchies. Judgment and shame lives in between those power dynamics. So if we can remove those hierarchies and create more of a path of understanding, we have an opportunity to see. People where they're at and meet them where they're at versus assuming that they have to be at the finish like a finish line or some top peak of, oh, I know all the rules I'm perfect I'm healed now.

Damali: I think that when it comes to movement practice, like I use very simple tools when it comes to kettlebells. Tension techniques, again, breath work, carrying the load, holding the load. Like these are all things where when we're in the moment, if we can give people an opportunity to see like how nuanced it is, how different is from body to body, they can take that back into these conversations.

Stephanie: Into the world, the same, like in yo, I'm a yogi from 12 years of training, but it's all about taking your yoga off the mat, taking your kettlebell off the gym, I guess, and going to the world with the same principle, right?

Damali: Yes,I always, it's bringing into the community, right? Right. Yeah. Feel like kettlebells create instability.

Damali: As you train with them, you learn how to bring stability. And as you bring connection into yourself, your body is a community. You're going to take that connection, extended out to your community, bring more connection and more belonging there. Like, you're not going to look at my big toe. Well, somebody might, I'm not going to look at my big toe and say, Oh, look, it has a bunion.

Damali: I'm going to cut it off. I don't like it. Like, you know, it's like this is a part of me too, I'm going to bring it in, I might want to improve its mobility, I might want to, you know, it may have pain, but overall, if I work on bringing the system together, improvements there will help my knee, it will help my hip, it will help the rest of my body.

Damali: So we want to see it like that too. So a person comes in. They might kind of be a bunion right now. They might not know that there's some dysfunction in where they are, and we can help them, but not by cutting them off, not by shaming them, not by creating a hierarchy like. Oh, well, look at me, I'm straight and you're not, right?

Damali: It would never work that way.

Stephanie: Yeah, it's about building the strength to be in an unstable environment with different opinions and different ways of doing anti diaculture. And feel safe. Is that the right way of seeing it?

Damali: I think so. Safe. And safe to be your authentic self. One of my tenants at Coaches Corner as well is like, we talk about our values going through and it's like, we're always going to be unlearning and learning together. But I have to create safety first, meaning nobody will ever be judged for having less knowledge, having less strength than anybody else. Again, remove hierarchies. So, if I'm here, I should feel safe that if I mess up, same way we might be practicing cuing and if somebody uses a gendered language, okay, whoops, fix it, move forward, right? We're not going to stick in to be like, you're a terrible person because you did this. Or we're not going to be there sitting there like, Oh my gosh, like, I am so sorry. I can't believe, like, Neither place is required for us to unlearn and then learn andmove forward together.

Stephanie: That's brilliant. So I want to bring you to one last topic as a fitness professional. What does it mean for a fitness professional to be size inclusive? Can you define that for anyone listening this?

Damali: Okay. So. I look at the body when I'm teaching kettlebells through a few considerations, one being, levers. Okay, so everybody's limbs are going to be different lengths, their torso, their bodies, creating different lever lengths.

Damali: There's also going to be space. So how much space do you take up? You may be someone who's thin or smaller bodied, but your hips may be quite wide. And so we talked about thigh gaps, but that might be just naturally how their body is. There's space between their leg versus somebody else who's, whose legs are larger. Or set closer together because of their pelvis, and they don't have that space between their legs, and then there's dynamics. So, we have breasts, they move, they can be out, they can poke forward, they can hang low, like, there's dynamics, and as you move, your body moves in kind. It jiggles, it wiggles, it moves, it's something.

Damali: So we have to make these considerations and create like a little Venn diagram around, is there space? Is there any obstruction? When it comes to the movement and you, right? what are your levers looking like? And then how dynamic is everything? Moving all together. So I'm looking at size inclusion from, again, the whole spectrum from, you can be very small, XXX, very small, or you could be 7X, infinite fat, you can be a very large body, but all of those same things intersect in different ways.

Damali: Then just small and enlarge. You can be small and short. You can be small and tall, right. So size inclusion makes making consideration for bodies along all of those intersections

Stephanie: and it's the role of the coach or the professional to then modify the movement. To fit the variety of sizes.

Damali: So I always say there's a variation ten variations of any one movement.

Damali: Okay. And props are not only for regression or making things easier. Props are accessibility to the movement. So it is the coaches, fitness professionals job. If they're looking at things from a size inclusive lens to make the movement accessible to the body, not to tell the body it's wrong and that if it fixes, it'll fit the movement. So we're creating that mix of what do we need to create a variation, which kind of props. Would be helpful to make the movement accessible, or if in the case of we want to respect the diversity of bodies, not every movement is for everybody. That's true. Yeah, right. Like, if that doesn't fit you if there's an obstruction. If a kettlebell is colliding with your body causing pain. We're not doing that. We'll find something else. We will find another option, another variation that is for hitting those muscle groups, soft tissue, movement function that we're trying to achieve for you.

Stephanie: And am I correct to say that this approach to fitness is not the traditional training of the fitness industry, you kind of have to go look in your own training to find that skill of being diverse, a movement diverse coach, like you have to go find that in another space and regular training.

Damali: I have done so many certifications and I am, I'm always wanting to learn. And I believe that you can learn from everybody and everything. But, in the world of certifications, it's all very like 1 box, you know, it'll be Oh, deadlift. Feet are hip distance apart. Set your feet. Nobody's asking the question, well, does the person now have space between their legs for something to actually pass? That's the basic of kettlebell. I don't know a lot about kettlebell, but something's gonna pass there, right? Something is gonna pass there. So, you know, you tell them, you told them as the coach to set their feet a certain way. And then if it doesn't pass there, it's their fault. Because you gave them this form and structure that they had to meet. That was just created for only certain types of bodies, instead of helping them to ascertain what is actually the best form and position for me, for my levers, for my body, for the space that I need, for the movement that's appropriate.

Stephanie: And that's what you train professional with in the program coach corner.

Damali: That's what we do at coaches corner is I'm not going to give you rule book, set your feet on X and Y, make a triangle unilateral. I'm going to help you to make those considerations so that you can coach each individual in their body.

Damali: And then. What we do to implement is every person leaves making their own coaches manual, you create your own manual of movements, what are the cues, the words you like to use, what are the words that you found people were very able to consume and adapt to, what are the other tools that you might be using visual aids might be making record like there's many ways to teach for many different learning styles. So you come out of it with your own personalized coaching toolkit that is just as unique as you are and just as unique as all the bodies that you're going to teach.

Stephanie: And that creates safety for you as a coach to then face. Most situation and feel safe in coaching any circumstance.

Damali: Right. And to know and just get curious when you meet, be like, Oh, let me get my coach's manual. I'm going to learn something today from your body. You're teaching me. I'm going to put that in my coach's manual so I can help someone else who maybe has the same. But the number of times we go to a certification, they give you a book. Yes. Regurgitate and say what it is, and there's never a space for, let me add to the book. Let me add to the book from the bodies I'm learning from.

Stephanie: And that's, I'm going to circle back to the beginning of the conversation when we were talking about defining success and marketing. When you relearn how to do your work as a fitness professional from that diverse lens, then your marketing message.

Stephanie: Has to change because that's not who you are anymore. You're not the cookie box cutter coach that came out of the standard certification.

Damali: That's it. That's it. I cannot present myself as like, Oh, I'm just X school certified coach. No, you're going to get from me is not anything you're going to experience from any one of the certifications I've definitely learned and gone through training to be qualified as a fitness professional.

Damali: I don't think anybody cares how many bones are in my hands, like, you know, things that we have to absorb. That's great. But I think that the true experience that comes through Coaches Corner is the fact that it's personalized, that it is meant for diverse bodies. I'm not claiming that You know, nobody's ever learned how to do a deadlift before.

Damali: So you're saying, Oh, you're going to teach me how to deadlift again. I know how to deadlift. Like I'm going to teach you how to explore with curiosity deadlifts for five different kinds of bottles. Yeah. Have you done that before?

Stephanie: The answer is probably no, I'm guessing. Well, it's the same thing in nutrition when we're taught to give a meal plan.

Stephanie: We're taught to give that cookie approach with white rice and green vegetables. But in fact, the eating behavior doesn't even come from the meal plan. It came from how you think about food. And that's where we need to coach that, but we're not taught that we have to go outside the traditional way to get that.

Stephanie: and I'm working towards getting that. At the roots. So every professional has it. But in the meantime, we have to go outside the traditional way of getting trained to get this diverse approach to fitness and eating.

Damali: Yes, exactly. That's where I'd really like to see like kettlebells become accessible to everyone. All the big box gyms now, if you go in, you'll see some kettlebells there, but they're collecting dust and their personal trainers do not have a clue how to use them or teach

Stephanie: And yet it's like so accessible. It doesn't require a machine, like you can take it anywhere.

Stephanie: One, one kettlebell anywhere.

Damali: Buckle it into your back seat. Put it in your backpack, go wrecking, whatever it is, like you can do so much with just one kettlebell and with people who've been properly trained to coach for all bodies. We would have like. Just transformation within how people feel about their bodies and in fitness overall.

Stephanie: It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Damali: And you too. I'm so glad we got a chance to connect. It's so exciting. And for Canadians everywhere, like, look out, we've talked now. Yeah.

Stephanie: So all the information about your program will be in the show notes. And I think the best place, I'm going to say this on my personal choice, but the best place to find you is on Instagram because you've got a pretty cool feed. So, Ed over there, it's Frazer. Molly Dodd Frazer, yes.

Stephanie: Thank you for being here.

Stephanie: Thank you.